Embodied Leadership: Why You Can’t Think Your Way Out of a Habit

[00:00:02] The best leaders don't have all the answers. They've just got better questions. Great conversations happen when the day is done. When the chaos stops and there's finally time to think. I'm Kate Nicholroy and I'm Maddie Fox. This is Late Night Leadership. Real conversations for curious leaders where the truth keeps late hours.

[00:00:31] Hello, Kate. What are we talking about this week?

[00:00:34] Good evening. Well, today we are breaking our polarities format and we're only two episodes into this series so I think that's just about a record. So there's no polarity today. What we're going to do is a deep dive on embodied leadership. There's two reasons we're doing this. One, it's Maddie's specialist subject. But also we were really conscious that this was weaving in and out of the first series. And actually as we talk about leadership, it's going to be even more integral to a lot of the stuff that we're talking about.

[00:01:05] So rather than just breadcrumbing it, we thought we'd stop and have a conversation about what it actually is because a lot of people don't know what embodied leadership means. It was very new to me when Maddie and I started hanging out. I think I'm about 30% towards understanding it. By the end of this conversation, maybe I'll be at 60. Who knows? So it's really just to really focus on this topic because I think it's underpinned so much of our conversation. Yeah, I feel a bit like I'm in the mastermind chair now.

[00:01:33] I mean, I'm delighted guys because I mostly just get to ask questions. So this is a super easy episode for me. I'm going to say what is embodied leadership and then I'm actually just going to leave. Just to sort of get us started, where a lot of this comes from is a problem that I think a lot of leaders listening will recognise, where maybe you've got into a habit of behaviour and it's not helping you and you've become aware of it.

[00:01:59] So maybe you always get grumpy in accounts meetings and you're aware of it and you're aware it's not helpful, but somehow still every time you get there, there you are being grumpy. And I think in a lot of our conversations, Maddie, you've talked about there being a gap between knowing what to do and actually doing it. And I just wondered if you want to say a bit more about what that looks like.

[00:02:24] Yeah, so I have definitely been there as a leader. I think I'm very much shaped around being a yes person. And so the kind of that cycle or pattern I would get into is saying yes, taking it all on, having too much to do, not really putting my head above the parapet and asking people to help.

[00:02:46] And then also getting a bit frustrated with the fact that I've sort of ended up with too much to do and kind of really, really unhelpful kind of cycle to be in. And in any pressured situation would just fall back to that. So I'd analyse that and go, well, that's silly. I shouldn't have said yes to that. But the minute I was under pressure, I don't know, it might be your team's asking you.

[00:03:10] And you know that they're really struggling with stuff going on at home or they're struggling with their workload. So you take it on and in that kind of pressure of environment, it's just like, oh, yes, I'll just go back to that. And then just get really cross with myself for not having changed. So we can know what the problem is and we can just keep continuing to do the same thing and stay in that cycle.

[00:03:38] So what does in-body leadership give us as a way out of breaking these patterns we're in? In the methodology that I trained in, ultimately, the view is you can't think your way out of a pattern. That it's an automatic response that your body has learned to because it was useful at the time. And it may have been that we're primed for safety, belonging and dignity. And by acting in this way, we get what we need in that environment.

[00:04:07] And then we're really practised in there. So I think there's something to say that these things are incredibly intelligent things that we learn to do in order to get what we need for ourselves to feel safe. So, yeah. So what I think you're saying is these are habits that we've learnt as kids that worked for us. Like, when you're in the playground, are you going to be the person that is really shouty so people leave you alone and give you whatever that is?

[00:04:38] Or are you going to be the person that appeases them? Or are you going to be the person that jokes? Or whatever it is, these are things that we did to get through childhood. It's just that now we're adults. They're not working so well. Absolutely. So they were, like I say, really intelligent responses to the environment we were in. And now they're really practised in us because, to your point, we started to do them very young. And so they're really practised in us.

[00:05:07] And we might be thinking now, oh, hang on, that's not serving me so well anymore in my role as a leader, in building this team, in building this organisation. And so what we're going to talk about today is, you know, how we acknowledge those patterns and some ways that we can start to think about interrupting that. Fab. So, yeah, we're going to be talking about changing those habits under pressure.

[00:05:32] We're going to be talking a bit about understanding how much people pick up from you before you've even said a word, which is another sort of part of the embodied, I was about to say embodied thinking, embodied knowing maybe. And Maddie's going to give us some practical things we can go away and try. But I think part of the reason we wanted to do this is, as an episode, is so much of what we're hearing in our work with leaders and their teams and organisations

[00:06:01] is just that more and more and more pressure seems to be being piled on to leaders and managers. And some of that's what's happening in the world externally, in the environment. It's also things happening within organisations, like managers and leaders having to handle more mental health conversations in their team, understanding different kinds of difference and trying to balance all of these different things together. And also still deliver more because organisations are struggling and there's more pressure to do more with less.

[00:06:29] That creates for a lot of people this sort of pressure cooker. And it's when you're in the pressure cooker that a lot of these automatic habits kick in. And it's also when it's so hard at that stage to change what you're doing. Absolutely. And I think as we get more and more into this season around polarities,

[00:06:53] the thing that I think is really important is that you can't manage a tension or a hard leadership moment that you can't feel. If you're disconnected from that, it's really challenging to be able to do that. Okay. So as my main contribution to this is saying, what is embodied leadership? I'm going to ask that question, but in a fun way. Can you explain what is embodied leadership to me as though I'm a really sceptical finance director? I can certainly give it a go, Kate.

[00:07:22] And I'll see you guys in 40 minutes. Bye. So your body gives you information as well as your head. You know, we are more than just our brain. We sense things and intuit things often before the brain has caught up with that and made sense. And in embodied leadership, we are learning to notice that.

[00:07:51] We're learning to create a pause between this automatic response under pressure and create some choice and intentionality about what we do next. And to be clear, it's not instead of thinking. This is about combining both of those intelligences. Yeah. And I think there's a lot that we do know really quickly.

[00:08:15] A lot of people say gut instinct is your brain working so fast that you haven't caught up with the mechanics of where it's pulling from. So you get this impetus. And if you're really expert in something, the story is about fire chiefs saying, everyone get out of this burning building 10 seconds before the whole thing implodes. And they couldn't tell you how they knew that. They just knew because it was ultra fast thinking. But what they would have said is, you know, this was a gut feeling that something was going to happen.

[00:08:44] So this is about understanding those feelings and also being able to think, is this coming from a position of expertise because I have learned this? Or is this just from a position of habit? I think that term gut instinct and there are other terms like that really lend themselves to, oh, there's something going on in my body before my brain caught up. I was trying to think, as I said that, I'm like, oh, what are the other ones? You think about when you get goosebumps and then, oh, I'm cold.

[00:09:13] But what happens is we get goosebumps first. Or someone walked over my grave, that phrase that something chilling happened. And again, what was that really about? And sometimes we can't always connect the two, but there was this real kind of instinct of something. And I think, too, there are things that happen with us. And it's like, how do we know that? So walking into a room feeling confident. What's telling you that you feel confident?

[00:09:42] What is going on in your body that insuits this place where you can go, I'm walking in this room confident? Or the opposite. I'm walking into this room really anxious about something. And I think, again, back to the methodology I trained in, they have really seen from decades of working with leaders that the difference in leadership is about how you show up. How you show up as a leader.

[00:10:11] And this is a real way in for us to tap into that. Because you can have the same wins. You can achieve the financial success of a business, et cetera. But we talked about in the culture series, right? Actually, there's this, how do you actually show up to do that, being an important part of that. Yeah. And so why is this useful for leaders?

[00:10:36] Well, I think going back a little bit to the knowing and doing gap, I think a lot of leadership development gaps are so far. There's lots of stuff out there that can help you be really aware about those patterns. I've certainly said it. I'm sure lots of people have. I've certainly heard other leaders say it where it's like, oh, well, that's just me. I know I do that thing. Coming back to those sort of repeated patterns. I know I withdraw in this scenario or I know I get grumpy in this scenario.

[00:11:06] And it kind of just becomes a part of us. And actually, self-awareness is critical. We can't change anything that we're not aware of. And self-awareness is not enough. How do we really move forward to that change? And I think that there is a bit of a gap in a lot of the leadership stuff that's out there about how you make those changes. So what is it that stops us from actually just being able to do this? I've got this self-awareness.

[00:11:31] I know that in this next meeting, I need to not say yes and take on loads of extra work. What is it that stops me not doing that? These automatic responses that we have, that we have been practicing for a really long time. To come back to that piece we talked about earlier. So whether you've been practicing it since being in the playground or at school, I guess the key is in the word automatic. It's not our brain doesn't go, oh, this is the thing I'm going to do.

[00:12:00] It's just so practiced in us that we do that without thinking, particularly when we're under pressure. And those kind of automatic responses really shape how we think. They might shape our mood. They might shape how we relate to people. What we do in certain scenarios. How we show up. And as I say, we learned this long before we're at work. And so therefore, for some of us, we've been practicing those things for a really long time.

[00:12:31] And it's not to say those things are bad because we have really come by that in a way that was helpful for us at the time. What we might start to see as a leader, that those responses aren't necessarily helpful for us now or aren't serving us now.

[00:12:49] I think the other thing is with these responses is they can really shut down our choice to do something different. Pressure comes in. We react in that way that we know and that we've practiced. And especially at that point, it's then really hard to think our way out of there.

[00:13:17] And so I'm hearing that these are habits that we've practiced. Yeah. And that we have these instinctive responses and those sort of come from our bodies. So what do about this? Yeah.

[00:13:38] So what we want to do is to be able to learn how to interrupt those automatic responses. And because if we can pause and interrupt that, we can have choice about how we react in certain situations. And this is something that we need to practice when we're not under pressure. Okay.

[00:14:02] So we need to be able to spot when it's happening and then have a way to interrupt that steam train of things going the way they normally do. Yes. Yes. Okay.

[00:14:22] And one way of being able to think or spot about some of these patterns, there's almost something very caveman about it in terms of these responses because it's how we respond to a threat. Being under pressure is like responding to a threat. And if you go back to the savannah where we're out trying to find forage for food, that might have been a tiger or a lion. And we need to respond to that in order to not end up being their lunch.

[00:14:51] In a modern environment, those threats might look different. But our response to that is similar. Those threats might be, I don't know, someone you work with. An email that pops up. A particular problem or challenge. Yeah. I sometimes talk to coaches if they are, I don't know, they've got a presentation that they need to do and they're really worried about it.

[00:15:15] Our brains are really bad at telling the difference between an audience watching our presentation and a rumful of lions trying to eat us. Yeah. And sometimes it's helpful to remind our brains that we're not actually going to be eaten. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So we need to remind our brains and our bodies may still perceive that we think we're going to be eaten in that moment. And we're likely to do a sort of go-to move in that.

[00:15:44] And that might look like I might want to move towards and fight whatever that is. It might look like I want to withdraw from the situation and I want to go quiet. It might also look like I'm now trying to think of the think of the other way. It's that sort of we're going to move towards. Oh, I might appease. I might appease in that situation.

[00:16:13] I think we've talked before about fight, flight, freeze as those kind of responses. And that's typically what's likely to happen. We might have a go-to one of those, but we also might be a little bit of a blend in that moment. Yeah. And I love what you're saying about withdrawing there as a strategy. I had a boss right at the start of my career and she used to talk about the plateau of apathy, which is where you got when you'd been working so hard and there was so much work and you'd just been going, going, going, going.

[00:16:41] And then suddenly there was just too much work and you hit the plateau of apathy and there's nothing you can do. And you just check out. And I give up, I guess, almost. And I thought she was absolutely insane until one day I hit the plateau of apathy and I was like, oh, yeah. How did you know you'd hit the plateau of apathy? What were the telltale signs? Well, I just felt like I didn't, I just wasn't going to, like there was no way to do all of the things.

[00:17:09] And instead of being wound up, I was just going to sort of surrender to that. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a great example. Yeah. Really great example of that. I mean, I say great. It can't have been that much fun. I mean, once I was on the plateau, it was great. Yeah. Yeah, right. Totally disconnected from the whole thing. And I get that.

[00:17:35] My thing is, I know when I've gone up and away, you know, like I'm just like, oh, did something just happen there? Because I don't really know what happened. Because actually, I've completely stepped away from that moment, even if I'm physically still there. Yeah. And with those things, there can be some early warning signals. So I've learned that some of my early warning signals are shoulders are up, jaws tight, fists might be clenched.

[00:18:06] Kate's pulling her face. What's going on? No, I was just consciously relaxing my shoulders and jaw as he was saying that. I don't know what you're talking about, Maddie. Yeah, absolutely. You know what? I didn't, like now I see that, I can see that at the moment. But originally what was telling me that is I used to get headaches. And I would, at the end of the day, my jaw would feel really tight.

[00:18:35] Or I've had shoulder issues and back pains for ages. And it's taken me a while to realize that is holding that tension so continuously or so regularly that it then produces sort of these other pains. And jaw one's a really common one. Yeah, I'm really good at jaw. Sometimes I'll sit in a meeting and be like, and now relax your jaw. Which probably makes me look really weird.

[00:19:05] But it's better than grinding your teeth into oblivion. Yeah. You can check into that. I'm not necessarily in the moment because it takes some sort of practice out of the moment to start working out what's going on. But if you're not sure where you hold tension, just clench your fists and let them go. Where is the point which they kind of spring to and stay to?

[00:19:32] Or, you know, hike your shoulders up, let your shoulders go and notice kind of what the difference is there. So, yeah, it's not always easy to feel tension because you have to go into, you have to, the body learns in contrast. So, because you might be so used to it, like I was with my shoulders or my jaw, you've got to really actually experience that tension even greater to know that that's been switched on. Does that make sense?

[00:20:02] If you're listening and you're going, no, I don't think I do any of these things. What you're saying is try doing a really extreme version and then see what that feels like. I mean, maybe not one to practice in the middle of a meeting, you know, find a private corner before you fully rage clench. I don't know. I went off piece there. Yeah. I love it though.

[00:20:26] But I think what we were going to talk about next was this, part of this is about understanding your patterns and how you can notice them and interrupt them. I think we were also going to talk about how so much of what we understand from each other is embodied as well. I think we talked in episode two about being above the line and below the line as a leader and the impact that that had. I don't know if you want to talk about that in this context.

[00:20:57] Yeah. So, I think it tracks really nicely with this methodology actually because when we're above the line, we are open, curious, connected, committed to learning. To learning. When we're below the line, we're closed, defensive and committed to being right. And I think that example I gave of my fist being tight, my shoulders being up, my jaw being clenched, that is definitely connected to me being below the line. What that then leads, like the so what of that?

[00:21:27] Well, when I'm like that, I am absolutely like so committed to being right. I might feel wronged or I might feel nobody's listening to my answer or whatever the things are that get me into that tense. And that absolutely puts me below the line. And as a leader, when I'm in that place, any of the conversations I might be having are not going to be usually effective. Yeah, totally.

[00:21:53] And that's for the book Nerds Among You, 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership. But I think you're not going to approach things very well when you're below the line. But people will spot it. We've all walked into a room and no one has said anything. And without any words or cognitive engagement, you go, Oh, I think there's something going on here and I don't like it and I would like to leave, please.

[00:22:23] Yeah. Yeah. So we might think there's one level of this, which is us being below the line means that we can't be effective or whatever the impact has on us as an individual. But you're absolutely right. If anyone can feel that without cognitively explaining, Oh, oh, I'm tracking over here that this person is below the line in the words that we're using.

[00:22:48] But they're likely to interpret that as, Oh, something's off today or I need to walk on eggshells. And then it impacts the way they behave with you. I mean, we've all had a boss where you were watching when they walked in the room in the morning to see how the rest of the day was going to go. Or maybe we all haven't, but I definitely have. Well, remember back to season one when we talked about culture and everybody said that Kate was in a better mood when she cycled to work.

[00:23:18] I don't think we need to revisit that. But yeah, they did. My team were like, we can tell whether you've cycled in or not because you are more or less delightful. Obviously, I think that was still on a scale where I was mostly delightful, surely. But I think there's research around this sort of emotional contagion. I think it was Bersada Wharton that did a paper all about the ripple effect. And she put business students into groups. She gave them a negotiation.

[00:23:49] And I think they were working out how to share a pot of money or something. But what they didn't know is that one person in each group was a drama student. Who had been told either to be sort of pleasant or unpleasant, high energy or low energy. And depending on the impact of that person, he used the same words every time, just said it in a different way. And what they found is that the mood of the group gravitated towards whatever he was projecting.

[00:24:19] And that affected what they reported about themselves and how people rated the effectiveness of the group. And when this person was playing a more positive person, there was more cooperation, there was less conflict, and everyone rated themselves higher. And the reverse, of course. And what was really interesting in this is that people felt those emotions but didn't realize where they'd come from. They didn't realize that this contagion was occurring. That's one study.

[00:24:48] But there is something of how you show up has an impact on the people around them, whether they are conscious of that or not. Yeah. And as a leader, we've talked before about the kind of the 10x impact of what a leader can do because your team are going to be tracking for that stuff, right? Some of them might be even wired more to that to be really vigilant about what's going on in the mood or how it feels.

[00:25:18] But ultimately, they are going to be tracking for that and responding accordingly. And I think we've talked about this a little bit before where you think about the environment a lot of these leaders are working in where I'm going from meeting to meeting to meeting. And let's say you start off the first meeting, the scenario you've just given. Someone in there has brought the mood down. Perhaps it's a bit, I don't know, those numbers aren't great or the content is troubling too.

[00:25:47] And then you have to talk about process improvement. I don't know. Anything like that. And then you take that into the next meeting and you take that into the next meeting and you're basically going around with this backpack of the troubles of the day that then start to impact how you deal with everyone else.

[00:26:08] And the tension in your body is like going up and up as you go through these meetings and not kind of leaving behind and being present to the next thing. So what can we do about this? I know there's something of before a meeting, just taking a moment and going, what do I want to bring into this room? How do I want to show up? And that can be a really useful sort of 10 seconds before a meeting starts. From an embodied perspective, is there anything else that's worth trying, Maddy?

[00:26:38] Yeah, absolutely. One of it's an old article now, but one of my favorite HBR articles that talks about this. It's called If You Aspire to Be a Great Leader, Get Present. Is that you add a little bit to that 10 seconds. So yeah, let's think about what do I want to bring? Who do I want to be in this next moment? But make it physical too. So often we're doing it from screen to screen. It's hung up, you're going to the next one.

[00:27:04] Before you come into that next meeting, it's just taking a minute to feel your feet on the floor. Lengthen your spine, soften your shoulders, let your jaw go. Take a couple of breaths, like low, low down into the tummy. Because that kind of racing around backpack thing we were talking about earlier, you're likely to be sort of breathing up high here. So really taking a minute to notice the state you're in. Can you notice? Can you feel urgency in you? Can you feel tension?

[00:27:34] Can you feel distraction? Is there some sort of residual energy from that last conversation? And using that moment to actively let that go. And it could be very physical, as we said earlier. Tense something up, let it go. Tense your fist, tense your shoulders, and let it go before you go into that next meeting. And then asking that question, Kate, about, well, what do I want to bring to this meeting? What matters in this conversation?

[00:28:02] What's important to me about how I show up? So that there's some intention around coming into it. Yeah. And often when people are talking about, are you grounded? This is what they're talking about. Have you got your feet on the floor? And what I realised in conversations with Maddy prior to this is that if any of you have ever sung in a choir, this is exactly what they get you to do just before you sing. Feet on the floor. Straighten your spine. Deep breath. And then you're ready to go.

[00:28:34] Yeah. Not to play devil's advocate or anything. Kate's favourite place to be. I have often, I've heard this, if you're feeling stressed, take three deep breaths. And I've tried this multiple times over the years. And it has generally entirely not worked in a pressure situation. And I guess I'm wondering why that is because I get what you're saying here and I get how if you can relax your physical state.

[00:29:04] But in the moment, it just doesn't, personally, I haven't found it that useful. So I think this is about practice. This is about, and it's about practice when we're not under pressure. Because once the pressure kicks in and our automatic response kicks in, it kind of takes over and it's running us rather than the other way around. And so we are practicing something all of the time.

[00:29:31] The question is, is what we're practicing aligned to what we really care about? And so we may have practiced the kind of the fight or the withdrawal or the appease. We may have been practicing that for years. And in order to do something different, in order to interrupt that pattern, we have got to practice something new many times.

[00:29:57] In the methodology I trained in, what they talk about is 300 repetitions to build muscle memory and 3,000 to embody a change. 3,000? Yeah, yeah. One of my teachers puts it very eloquently, which is the definition of an embodied change is to be able to do something different consistently under pressure.

[00:30:20] And to get us that we've got to build that muscle by practicing that when we're not under those extreme pressures. So it's, I don't know, if you are training to be good at football, she says, you do all of the practice, all of the repetition, so that on game day, you've got it in your muscle memory and you can do the footballing. Yes. Yes.

[00:30:48] So in many ways, this is as virtuous as going to the gym without the tedium of going to a gym and you can do it while you're having a cup of tea. That's what I'm hearing. Yes. And even more virtuous because of the impact it has on other people.

[00:31:07] I would say about that kind of practice piece, like there are places where you can practice that maybe give you a little amount of pressure in order to trigger something in you in practice, but it's not high pressure. Does that make sense? So one of the things that really, really winds me up is Euston Station. Walking across Euston Station. Has anyone ever walked across Euston Station?

[00:31:29] And literally every bit of me tenses up and I am ready to shoulder my way through it. And so that's a really good place to practice doing that in a different way or being on the tube. I used to quite like practicing there too because there is an element of pressure there that I'm interpreting, but it's not that really important meeting with the team or the important meeting with my investor. Yeah.

[00:31:58] I feel like having two small children is going to give me limitless opportunities to practice this. Yes, for sure. Yeah. Cool. And I think that's a really good point because you don't necessarily need a new practice. It's changed the intention of something that you're doing. So you already have a practice in place and how can you do that intentionally?

[00:32:24] So whether it's just before you pick up the kids from school. That's a really great moment to do that practice we talked about just before you go into switching up your day to picking the kids up from school. Going to be me at the school gates on Monday. Okay.

[00:32:45] But what I love about this is it's so quick, really, in the grand scheme of things that you can do it before a meeting or in between Zoom. And I guess what I'm taking is you might as well give it a try. Like, you've got to do 3,000 repetitions, so you best start now. Yes. But it's not going to hurt in any event.

[00:33:08] If you're listening to this and you're not sure, you might as well try it and see what happens and give it 300 goes and then judge at that point whether it's helped. Yeah. And I think one last thing I would add to practicing is finding your own, for sake of what, why are you doing this? Having something that's in your mind about what you care about or is it moving towards something that you want to be different or something that you want to create?

[00:33:38] In order to ground that practice in something that's really relevant to you. So, for the sake of my children still being alive at the age of 18. Yes. Got it. Love that. So, we're at the end of the episode, I guess. So, I guess it's time for takeaways.

[00:34:05] And I think my main takeaway, I hadn't clicked that this is about building the muscle. And that it's about what you're doing, I guess, is you're practicing interrupting your thinking and interrupting your patterns of thought at lower stakes time so that it's a more familiar thing to do in higher stakes time. So, I'm going to be trying building that in.

[00:34:30] And if any of you see me with a cup of tea, you'll know that it's probably quite a good time to talk to me. But I love that. I think the thing that I would like to share is that for a long time, we've really prioritized the brain over anything else. And I just think we are so much more than that.

[00:34:55] And there is more information and intelligence in the rest of us than just our cognitive thinking. And allowing some of that to come in is a way of fundamentally changing how we lead and how we show up. Love it. And Maddie, if people are fascinated in this and want to go deeper and find out more, where can they go?

[00:35:24] Yeah, so loads of amazing resources out there. If you love a book, anything by Richard Strosi Heckler. He wrote The Leadership Dojo, The Anatomy of Change. That's the school I trained in in terms of this methodology. But then there's also some other great books like Your Body is Your Brain by Amanda Blake, where she talks about neuroscience and somatics as well. That book is a banger. 10 out of 10 would recommend that. That book slightly blew my mind.

[00:35:55] And if you read it, then drop me a line and we'll have a coffee and chat about it because it's such an interesting read. Oh, I love that. I think there's also, this is kind of experiential. The books are great, but it is something that we also need to experience. So whether that's finding a coach or it's finding something where you can actually have a go at this.

[00:36:20] So next episode, we are going back to our polarity format because we are committed. And the next episode is going to be about standing your ground versus preserving the relationship with the person. Where are you usually on that line? How can you move up and down from where you are? And what would it be like to take a step into the less familiar side? Or can you do both at the same time?

[00:36:45] I mean, we nearly called this podcast Both And, and then we realized someone else had already had that idea. So we are going to be exploring that. Great. And if you found today useful, then please share it with a friend. Spread the word. And we will see you in two weeks time. You have been listening to Late Night Leadership.

[00:37:11] With Maddie Fox from Mad Fox Group and Kate Nicoroy from the Good Ideas Agency. This episode and this series wouldn't be nearly as fabulous without the dazzling talents of our wonderful producer Tim Fox and our musical maestro Richard Flindell. Before you go, this is a conversation not to be taken as advice. You're the leader. Trust your own judgment. Same time in two weeks. Good night, leaders, wherever you are.